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I’ve been playing 5th edition D&D (5e) on and off since September, which, for me, has really cemented the divide between roll vs. role-playing and player vs. PC skill.
My one-and-only exposure to 5e before this was at a convention during the D&D Next playtest period, about six years ago. So even though my memory is hazy, I don’t recall thinking that we were rolling skill checks all the time. Maybe it is the DM (and maybe other 5e DMs can chime in here), but nearly everything we do in the 5e game is based on a roll, tied to some stat on our character sheet. We roll constantly. “I search the sack… OK, roll an investigation check” or, “I examine the fireplace, looking for cracks or anything irregular about the stone floor and sides… OK, roll an investigation check” or “We move down the hallway, trying to be quiet… OK, roll a stealth check”. So the old-school primer is accurate in that regard, and I find it distracting during play. We’re constantly looking at our character sheets to see what it is we can do in any given situation. It also seems that the player is making most of the rolls – which is fine sometimes, but in a lot of cases this encourages meta-gaming when the other players see a poor roll and want to try the search or listening at the door or whatever it is themselves.
I also notice the power creep. At 2nd-level my Druid was already able to shapeshift into animal form, and had three cantrips he could cast at will, one of which is the well-known Shillelagh, which gives him a magic staff with +5 to-hit and damage (his spell attack bonus) that lasts for 10 combat rounds. At 2nd-level the party’s Ranger could already cast spells and had +6 to stealth checks. Again at 2nd level, the Warlock could telepathically communicate with any creature within 30′, regardless of what language they speak, and had the Poison Spray cantrip, which does 1d12 damage on a failed save (I mentioned the powerful cantrips in my convention report, so that at least did not change from the playtest).
All that said, the combats are fun – 5e combat does not seem overly complex or slow, although there is not the ever-present fear of death that pervades old-school games. It is very easy to regain lost hit points, and the multiple saves versus death mean PC death must be pretty rare (it hasn’t happened to us yet). And with the aforementioned power creep, we’re doing significant damage on each attack round. Finally, with its reliance on character skill, 5e is far more forgiving of bad play and tactical mistakes than the old-school games I’m accustomed to.
For an old-school gamer, I think the key is playing 5e for what it is and not worrying about how you might do it in your own games. It is still fun. But I don’t think I would enjoy running such a game. I would try to make it too much like OD&D or whatever and in the end, I’d think to myself “Why not just run OD&D?”.
Do you think it is built into the rules for 5e or just DM’s choice to make all the skill checks? It seems like much of this would be unnecessary. I agree that all of the skill checks would take away from any kind of immersion in the game.
Given the way PCs are created and the long list of skills, it seems to be geared towards that type of game. You could easily play 5e differently and avoid a lot of the checks, though – so maybe it is just due to DM inexperience.
Me and my group are well aware of both styles of gaming, and I can see the players switching styles depending on what edition I’m DMing. In B/X and 2e, they always describe their actions and wait for me to make a decision. In 5e, I occasionally hear them asking me to just roll a specific skill check. I can’t blame my players for lack of creativity, so I guess it has to do with modern gaming notions being more player-centric and more skill-based.
Either that or simply the dominant D&D playerbase, claiming a video game culture, didn’t care much for role-playing.
That’s interesting they will switch styles based on the game. I would have thought they would settle on a preferred play style. I had a chance to play some White Box with this same group recently, and I had to tell them early on to “just tell me what you want to do”. It did not come naturally. But to be fair, they all have no experience other than 5e.
Good Thoughts… And pretty much my experience as well.
In my mind, D&D basic/1st ed/2nd ed, is about more about survival and roleplaying. 5e is more about story and having the ability/check to determine the result. Thanks for the link to oldschool primer; I’m reading it now.
I’ve only just started playing 5E with my old group that I’ve managed to reconnect with. Gaming has been difficult of late but the push for remote tools that Covid-19 has been good for some things: we can all game together again. I don’t notice quite the immediate resorting to what is on the character sheet, but then we’re all older school players. These are people I’ve gamed with for between 20 to 35 years. I think that makes a difference. I quite liked the experience. A bit safer than I remember, but not that safe. Still found it wise to be cautious. I think our GM is pretty good based on other games I’ve played with him, so wasn’t really surprised he ran an interesting session.
Thanks for the comment. I think that if I were to play 5e with my more experienced gaming group, the result would be similar. I also play cautiously in the 5e games – I guess just out of habit – but I find that much of the time it is unnecessary, like I should have just run into the room or whatever because the end result is the same.
I am torn on the topic of 5e. The D&D Next playtest got me into the game again after years of sitting out. I disliked 3, 3.5, and 4e, but Next felt fresh and new. I ate it up. But somehow, after the official release, I found myself with the same problem you mentioned…asking “Where did all these die rolls come from? Was it always like this?”
It’s like I blinked and realized I was looking at a different game.
I went back to OD&D and immediately felt more comfortable in my DM’s chair. While I can run a game of 5e that feels closer to old-school editions, it requires ignoring quite a lot of the rules as written (skills, feats, backgrounds, short rests, etc, etc, etc) and, by that point, why not just play OD&D?
Oh well. I still enjoy it, and I have purloined some 5e rules for my house rules list, but I think I will remain a devoted fan of the 3LBB’s.
Thanks for the comment, that echoes my sentiments. There is something magical about the 3LBBs, about using them as a base to make your own game that 5e can’t touch. It, and even the players to some degree, fight such efforts tooth and nail. I think that’s why 5e is so popular at conventions, it’s a known quantity. It reminds me of one of Gygax’s stated reasons for creating AD&D 1e – to normalize the rules for easy convention play.